BATTLEBLOG - To LAM or Not To LAM

[DeJaVu]

I'm sure this will be a lightning rod for conversations...but better to get it over with now and see how it all plays out.

Land-Air-'Mechs (LAMS) were apart of the game from the very beginning, starting with the publication of Technical Readout: 3025 and the AeroTech box set in 1986. However, the last standard rules book they appear in was The BattleTech Compendium, which published in 1990; 1994 saw the publication of The BattleTech Compendium: The Rules of Warfare, which deleted the LAMs and they were moved to Tactical Handbook, which also published that year (this is when "Levels" were introduced to BattleTech and LAMs were relegated to "Level 3" rules). That same year also saw the publication of the Invading Clans sourcebook, which detailed Clan Nova Cat's annihilation of LexaTech Industries, the last holdout of LAM production in the Inner Sphere. In 1996 Technical Readout: 3025, Revised was published, removing those images FASA no longer would use in BattleTech, which included the LAMs. With the publication of Maximum Tech in 1997, which replaced the Tactical Handbook as the "Level 3 advanced rulebook" (which didn't include LAMs at all), LAM rules fell out of print.

Now because I was involved from 1996 on and have agreed with the original decisions regarded LAMs, there's a lot of players that believe I hate them. First, note that I didn't start working at FASA until 1996, so the process began years before I started work. Second, I don't hate them...well back in the day (late 80s) I had a lance of LAMs in my mercenary unit I ran...lots of fun memories there, coordinating attacks between them and a lance of Longbows.

So if I don't hate them, why were they removed and why have I been adamant about keeping them that way for some 15 years? I've discussed this before, but thought it useful to showcase the reasoning (we'll ignore the 'can't use those images any more' issues, as they're not actually relevant).

1. LAMs were included at the very beginning because they were part of the block of images brought to the game from various anime sources. However, as BattleTech grew and progressed it created its own Western-style aesthetics, where 'Mechs were not ultra nimble, gynmnastic robots as shown in many anime, but instead were "walking tanks." 100 tons of lumbering death stalking the battlefields (some of the moves shown in various novels by "legendary warriors", not-with-standing). As such, LAMs simply did not fit well into that aesthetic.
2. The art of what a LAM fighter looks like was completely different than all the other aerospace fighters within the game. Now one could make the argument (and it has been made) that 'Mechs run a huge gamut of look and style and so do aerospace fighters, so why not just consider the LAMs at the extremes. But the thinking is that they ran just too extreme. Even the most 'airplane' looking of the aerospace fighters (say the Corsair) were different 'enough', as opposed to the LAM aerospace fighters which looked like our modern day F-14s/F-15s.
3. Rules were completely broken. Now rules can always been fixed...I've been doing that for endless years it seems. But this was a small part that, added to the two parts above, ultimately resulted in the decision to ensure they didn't return in the 'current' BattleTech universe.

So why am I talking about this? Well...because comprehensive rules for LAMs are done and will be included in the Alternate Eras section of Interstellar Operations. And I must say, there's rarely been a rules set I've seen have to go through so many revisions and playtest cycles before we felt it worked across the board and completely plugged into all the rules we have now. I've always known the original rules had problems, but the more we poked and the more we playtested, the more the problems came to the fore...but after a lot of months of good playtesting by a lot of people...we've got a rules set that I believe fully works.

So item 3 is gone. What about item 1? Don't they still violate the aesthetics of BT? Yes...they still do. However, there are several different types of units/rules that violate the established aesthetic of BT 'as a whole,' and yet are canon within the universe. For example, the use of nukes and biologicals are part and parcel of the history of BT. However, until the Jihad they'd never been used 'on screen' (and even in the Jihad they're a small candle next to the massive use of them during the early Succession Wars). However, even though they've been used during the Jihad, it doesn't make them appropriate for the entire swath of BattleTech eras. So you'll notice that while we published nuke rules in Jihad Hot Spots: 3070, we've not yet included them in any core rulebook...that's because they fit within only a few eras, not all and so those rules will appear in the Alternate Eras section of IO. The same applies to LAMs. While a lot of effort was put into removing them from the 'current' time line, it doesn't mean they were ever "removed from canon."

In fact, that's ultimately why I gave in and threw my whole support behind making them happen. Because the entire purpose of the new line of books is the "whole kitchen sink" approach, where we put in every rule we can think of to cover every last bit of what's in our awesome universe...and let the players decide what they do or don't want use in a given scenario/campaign. And since LAMs are absolutely part of that canon, thanks to a single sentence in the Star League sourcebook concerning Striker regiments, if I ever want to see my pet project of Historicals: Liberation of Terra and I want it to match canon...we've got to have LAMs.

So, that only leaves item 2 to figure out...but...well...have to leave something for you guys to guess about, right?

Hopefully this gives everyone something they can sink they're teeth into. If you love LAMs, their coming back, but specifically placed within the 'alternate eras' framework. And for those that hate LAMs, exactly because they're placed in that framework, depending upon when and where you run your campaigns, you can ignore them to your hearts content.

See ya next time.


Randall

Добавлено спустя 3 минуты 25 секунд:

Короче ЛАМы ждите в новой книге, но как я понял они не канон, но без них никуда...

[Hobbit]

Короче ЛАМы ждите в новой книге, но как я понял они не канон, но без них никуда...

ЛАМы были, являются и всегда будут каноном вселенной Battletech.

[Fenris]

типа чо, новую фабрику построят для их производства?:)

[KolbunD]

Fenris

типа чо, новую фабрику построят для их производства?

ага, типа новую хельмскую библиотеку откапают, а там черчежи постройки минизавода из пластилина

[Маленький Скорпион]

KolbunD, скорее, какой-нибудь гениальный конструктор найдёт богатого покровителя. Или производители оружия решат попилить бабло под эту марку. Проблема ж не в чертежах ;)

[Stan]

Fenris

типа чо, новую фабрику построят для их производства?

ага, типа новую хельмскую библиотеку откапают, а там черчежи постройки минизавода из пластилина

Не, Биллс явно дает понять, что дальше Наследных Войн мы ЛАМов не увидим.

[KolbunD]

черт, так скоро до трасформеров дойдут
лично я в этом вопросе консерватор - бегают по земле, ну и пускай себе бегают

[Stan]

черт, так скоро до трасформеров дойдут
лично я в этом вопросе консерватор - бегают по земле, ну и пускай себе бегают

А это и есть трансформеры.

У меня в детстве был китайский прообраз LAMа Wasp - белый с пиратскими наклейками. До сих пор жалею, что кому-то передал по наследству)

[Маленький Скорпион]

KolbunD, если смотреть по старому Tactical Handbook (8630), то ЛАМ - это больше понтов, чем реальной боевой эффективности. Ну, и лишний гемор для пилота. Катит только условиях, когда тратиться ещё и на файтер - не выходит.

[Fenris]

У меня в детстве был китайский прообраз LAMа Wasp - белый с пиратскими наклейками. До сих пор жалею, что кому-то передал по наследству)

это скорее всего - воритек из Роботека-1, из Эскадрилии Смерти...у нас такие тоже продавались.

[Hobbit]

типа чо, новую фабрику построят для их производства?:)

"Есть в каноне" не означает "есть в текущем таймлайне". ЛАМы регулярно упоминаются в старых источниках, поэтому из вселенной их никак не выкинуть.

[Родривар Тихера]

типа чо, новую фабрику построят для их производства?

"Есть в каноне" не означает "есть в текущем таймлайне". ЛАМы регулярно упоминаются в старых источниках, поэтому из вселенной их никак не выкинуть

Ну, Рендалл-наше -все-Биллс, четко держет нос по ветру. В принципе, он привел очень убойные аргументы против наличия ЛАМ в игре. Мне, кстати, тоже это ответвление боемехов казалось бессмысленным - для тех, у кого есть бабло лучше купить АКИ, а для бедных есть конвенционалфайтеры и прочие вертолетики. Т.е. ЛАМ это что-то вроде пятого колеса, в телеге русского самодержавия - от него не жарко и не холодно.
Но многим ЛАМ нравятся. Поэтому тов. Биллс прямо заявляет - мне это не нравится. но канон позволяет. Хотите играть - играйте.
Более тог, если таких "сигналов с мест" будет достаточно много, то, вполне возможно, ЛАМ опять вернут в игру в полноценном виде, еще раз доработав правила.

KolbunD, скорее, какой-нибудь гениальный конструктор найдёт богатого покровителя. Или производители оружия решат попилить бабло под эту марку. Проблема ж не в чертежах ;)

Этот вопрос в БТ всплывает периодически на "полулегальном" уровне. Типа как у Торстона в "Рожденном свободно" есть упоминание, что соколиные ученые на базе на Охотнице работали именно над ЛАМ.
Сильно удивлен, почему вобби этот девайс не дали откастомить.

KolbunD, если смотреть по старому Tactical Handbook (8630), то ЛАМ - это больше понтов, чем реальной боевой эффективности. Ну, и лишний гемор для пилота. Катит только условиях, когда тратиться ещё и на файтер - не выходит.

Вообще это катит в условиях когда своих АКИ мало, а у врага много вертолетиков и есть конвенциональные истребители - тут даже такие уродцы могут очень пригодиться.

Не, Биллс явно дает понять, что дальше Наследных Войн мы ЛАМов не увидим

Ну, это Биллс говорит открытым текстом. А дает понять он, что если народ сильно хочет таких игрушек, то лично он, Биллс, ничего против этого не имеет, хотя сам их и не жалует.
П.С. самому, чтоль, такой девайсик откастомить? На конкурсе таких шняг вроде не мелькало.

[Siberian-troll]

Here's everything from Freebirth, but I haven't included duplicate information (multiple mentions of a LAM having Medium Lasers when it's already been stated it has them, for example). This is trying to be purely factual, with no speculation.

P203-204

A Land-Air-`Mech, in theory at least, had once been considered an advanced concept….It could be quite an awesome spectacle, watching an aerofighter apparently grow legs while losing wings as it descended. Using the jump jets in its legs to slow the fall, a LAM would appear to settle gently on the ground…A skilled pilot was often triggering pulses from his laser weapons even before the LAM landed…theory and practice did not mesh. Land-Air-‘Mechs did not live up to their name. While effective on occasion, LAMs were more often down with glitches and outright mechanical failures. Some believed the internal machinery was too complicated. After all, the argued, the reason that the BattleMech was such a successful fighting machine was that its design was relatively simple and its technology emphasized flexibility and maneuverability, two features apparently diminished in most of the LAMs. Either a LAM had the assault finesse of an areofighter or the maneuverability of a BattleMech, but most lacked one or the other and some lacked both…
Another objection made about the LAM was that it was too difficult to train a warrior to operate both the Mech and areofighter phases. Whoever sat at the controls seems to lack skill in one mode or another…
…She had managed to present a proposal convincing enough that the scientist hierarchy approved her request to study and test the possibility of putting two pilots in a LAM; one skilled in the areospace fighter configuration, the other in the `Mech configuration…


p 229
The second of the two LAMs intended for the mission, dubbed Evil Twin Two, appeared…It was based on the design for the old Stinger LAM…
Geoff piloted Evil Twin Two off the platform…he now sat in the cockpit, which was not much larger than the original old Stinger LAMs had been.

P230
Evil Twin Two, which had been modified from its original 30 tons to somewhere between 40 and 45, still looked fragile…Its legs had been thickened somewhat, which slowed it down on the ground, but its fuselage was longer and narrower, which made it faster and more maneuverable in the air….
She had added machine guns to the old Stinger’s standard medium lasers, although the Techs warned that too many stress points on Evil Twin Two’s intricate superstructure would weaken its structural integrity…
Evil Twin One closely resembled the original Phoenix Hawk LAM, only slightly reconfigured to accommodate the two-pilot situation. Peri and her team had decided not to tinker too much with the basic Phoenix Hawk design. Its 50-ton weight could not be enhanced appreciably, and they had cut corners to keep it close to its original tonnage. The weight at the front had been reduced, and in contrast to Evil Twin Two, its fuselage had been shortened, even though sleeker [sic]. Peri’s team had added machine guns to Evil Twin Two, but had replaced them on Evil Twin One with an extra large laser and a capacity for SRMs. The current Evil Twin One had SRMs mounted in its center torso.

P256-257
Peri had given this Mech [Evil Twin One] extra jump jet power and ability. The jets would last longer and could be used more often. Where the use of jump jets was normally limited, Evil Twin One has more jumps than it knew what to do with. Evil Twin Two was not similarly fitted because it could not afford to sacrifice any of its firepower weight.
…
Gerri had put Evil Twin One into a sharp dive…he fired two pulses from his large laser at the Warhammer…

P260-261
He turned his Mech around and saw that Sentianna’s LAM was heading toward the Warhammer. It had just opened fire with its medium lasers…
…some of the autocannon fire hit the Evil Twin [Two] and rocked it. The aircraft went out of control for a moment, and Peri thought it might be ejection time…
…”I am putting us back into Mech mode, Peri,” Stennis said…Stennis flipped the mode-changing switch, and Peri felt a bump as the LAM’s legs began to extend…


p271
Evil Twin Two reeled from another burst of PPC fire that made mincemeat out of its left arm.
“That hit takes away half our working weaponry [the LAM had two working machine guns –DW],” Stennis said, checking the damage display. Evil Twin Two then took another hit…”There goes the other half.”
..."our jump jets are still operative," Stennis said...

P273
“Well Gerri,…we [Evil Twin One – DW] are legless and therefore stuck in AirMech mode.”

P284
The remaining three LAMs were also loaded onto the DropShip, which would carry them to some other unknown fate.



Conclusions (general):
-These are two-pilot machines; one pilot for BattleMech mode, and one pilot for AirMech and ASF mode.
-LAMs have a single switch by which they change modes - it's not a complicated process for the pilot.
-There are at least three LAMs potentially remaining in Clan space
-A LAM can lose both legs and still fly
-Both Clan LAMs have two full sets of controls, and Evil Twin Two has a jumpseat for a third passenger.
-Putting a second set of controls and a jump seat in the Stinger LAM didn't appreciably increase the cockpit size.
-Legs are mentioned as extending twice. Does does that imply that they retract into somewhere on the Mech, or retracting into themselves (growing shorter and longer)?



Conclusions (Evil Twin One):
-A LAM can lose both legs and still fly - does this indicate that jump jets for that Mech are NOT in the legs?
-Even though this LAM is described as being very close to a Phoenix Hawk LAM, it never uses the LRMs found on that model, nor mentions having them. It explicitly loses the machine gun on that Mech, however.
-This LAM mounted at least two medium lasers (p 260), two large lasers (p 230) and an SRM rack (p 230)
-This LAM weighs very close to 50 tons, though "corners were cut" to keep it close to its original tonnage. Does that imply use of extra-light materials?
-This LAM's large lasers fire "pulses".
-This LAM has extra jump capacity - this sounds like the 3x jump thing, but could be extra internal fuel.



Conclusions (Evil Twin Two):
-This LAM weighs at least 40 tons, and possibly 45.
-It has lost ground speed by "thickened legs" (extra armor?), but increased airspeed (IJJs?).
-At least one of Evil Twin Two's Machine Guns is arm-mounted.
-This Mech mounts JJs, but doesn't have the increased ability from them that Evil Twin One does.
-Adding "stress points" will weaken the internal structure of the machine - weapon mounts count as stress points. This is unlike descriptions of BattleMechs, where the addition of weapons or ammo bins is fairly trivial.

[Heikkii]

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[acefalcon]

Эх, нихрена она не вписывается. ЛАМ неэффективен, хрупок, дорог, требует лишние два-три года подготовки. А для упомянутой выше задачи космодром не нужен, достаточно чистого поля метров на триста - для взлета шаттла. Или просто площадка метров 90 в диаметре - на нее половину типов дропшипов посадить можно.
И вообще, "подковерные" операции рулят)))

[Heikkii]

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[acefalcon]

А разнесчастный картонный ЛАМ при активном ПВО противника вообще долго не живет

[Typhoon]

Вот это я понимаю мастеркласс! Учитесь, меховоины!
Кажется, это Wasp-LAM

Кажется, это Макросс.

Но, в принципе, сама концепция LAM очень органично вписывается в систему вооружений БТ.

ЛАМ как мех хуже равнотоннажного меха.
ЛАМ как самолет хуже равнотоннажного самолета.
При этом сложнее, дороже и т.д.
Для конкретной задачи улететь с планеты лучше взять какой-нибудь челнок или дропшаттл. Например
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/KR-61, http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ST-46.

[acefalcon]

Что такое "дропшаттл"? Раньше таких зверей в БТ не водилось

[Маленький Скорпион]

acefalcon, как раз раньше и водились. Но очень давно. Еще до появиления докинг колларов и джампшипов современного типа.